Self Loathing Pickup Artists, Coaches and Mark Manson

I have some great articles I wrote coming up on my blog, as well as some audios of me doing talks in Chicago, (possibly videos but I haven’t decided yet) but I had to kind of fit this in here. I really don’t want to make my blog a place where I “call out” bad coaches or whatever but I come across some of these guys and just shake my head, realizing that guy are paying them GOOD MONEY to learn BAD HABITS and BAD INFORMATION and in this case it appears from someone who doesn’t even enjoy what he does and doesn’t have the skills (self admittedly) to teach his own students.  In this case I’m talking about a guy calling himself Mark Manson who is the author of the blog which was formerly known as

I don’t really know who this guy is apart from the fact that there were a couple guys on a private forum I belong to who said they read his blog and said it was great stuff.  However, both of these guys who read his stuff have a sort of attitude that can be summarized as, “Who needs this pickup shit?  You don’t need to study bullshit routines or material.  All that pickup stuff is bullshit!  Just be a man and grab your balls.”

The inherent problem with this is that these are also guys who are not having the success they want from this game, however they have created a mental block for themselves, unknowingly, that is not allowing them to use all the avenues available to bring their game to a kickass level.  Why?

Well, I won’t spell it out for you too much but my belief is that there have been an influx of guys coming onto the scene these days teaching dating / seduction / pick up arts who are trying to make themselves and others think, they are on some higher level of game and that all that old, “Pick up bullshit” is so beneath them.  The problem is they create a dichotomy in people wanting to learn this stuff and improve their lives that:
A:  I want to learn pickup and seduction.

B:  Wanting to learn pickup and seduction is creepy, for losers etc.

So they basically cut these poor guys off at the knees.

I think my comment to him will explain what I mean pretty well so, to avoid the risk of repeating myself, I’ll just get right to the comment I left on his “Moderated” blog comments section, which I tend to doubt will even see the light of day.  PS – As I said before, I tend to Red Flag anyone who moderates their blog.  If you’re not confident enough in your beliefs on your blog where you can post them and handle the feedback people give, you probably shouldn’t be posting those beliefs.

Anyway, here’s a link to his article:

The comments that really got under my skin were the following:

Quote from:  Mark Manson

“Here’s a dirty truth about being a PUA coach: many guys who take coaching don’t actually want to change. They want to be validated. They want to feel cool and be around someone who they think is cool. They want to unload the responsibility for changing themselves onto someone else.Rather than hiring a coach to help them progress, to them it’s more of a “rent-a-cool-friend” service.

…A lot of these guys don’t need a pick up instructor. They need a shrink and maybe some sort of anti-anxiety therapy. They need some confidence and a push to put themselves out there more and more. The technical aspect of picking up women really ISN’T that difficult. It really can be explained and taught within a few days. But it must be practiced for a long time, and to have that practice, a guy has to have healthy mindsets and an ability to overcome his fears.”

And my reply to him (we’ll see if he actually posts it):

Ummmm. I see stuff like this from “coaches” and it makes me sad that so many of them shouldn’t be coaching.

PART OF THE TERRITORY is that it’s my job as a dating coach to not only make my students who are in this boat aware of this fact, but to hammer that bullshit attitude out of them and rebuild them up sending them in a positive direction. That’s why they pay you, man. They are paying you to help them change for the better. Maybe they don’t even know these things are their problem, but for every single guy that has come to me wanting me to do all the heavy lifting and placing the responsibility of them magically changing upon my shoulders I Call them on it, and immediately kick that shit up into a higher standard and make them work.

If they have social anxiety, then they paid me, I help them overcome it. If they are fucked up a little in the head – that’s easy, I was once fucked up in the head too, and since I took responsibility and improved myself, I can use some of those same tools to help my students.

Here’s what’s funny. The same thing you are accusing your students of is the exact same thing you are doing. They are placing the responsibility for change on your shoulders, and then you are turning around and placing that responsibility on psychology articles, saying they need to seek a psychiatrist, or just playing it off as “they don’t want to change”.

In other words YOU “want to unload the responsibility for changing YOUR STUDENTS onto someone else.” Why are you charging them if you can’t handle them? Maybe instead of blaming them, you should step away from coaching and get your shit straight before you try coaching others.

Teaching a guy to get laid is the easy part. Teaching them to have a skillset, and have a kickass attitude and mindset is the real challenge. You said it yourself. You don’t even like to coach. You don’t or didn’t even like yourself and you have some misconstrued idea that because you let the life get the best of you, that means everyone else is in the same boat. You thrived off the validation and always felt the need to impress your students, were always worried what they thought about you. Speaking of boats – another one is the “I’m so much cooler than the PUA community” boat a lot of guys seem to be jumping on board. So many guys play this game of learning their skillset from the community and then they want to portray themselves as “I’m not one of those creepy pickup guys”. You’re part of the problem. You’re letting social programming run away with you. You think this is you being above the PUA thing but this is just your inner fear of society viewing you as “one of those pickup nerds”. That shit rubs off on other guys. Now you got guys out there wanting to improve but feeling this weird dynamic that they are somehow “creepy or weird” for wanting to learn it. Guys like you are perpetuating the same shit that we are ALL supposed to be fighting against. Anyway, back on topic…

Has it ever occurred to you that if you had your shit straight to begin with you wouldn’t need to seek the validation of your students, or wouldn’t worry about trying to approach every girl you see to prove something to them? You wouldn’t get so caught up in that downward spiral you talked about. As a matter of fact, if you truly enjoyed what you did, really were passionate about being social, going out, meeting people, meeting women – if this was NORMAL for you, no amount of getting paid or not getting paid would ruin that for you.

Tell that nonsense to a successful club promoter. He/she will laugh at you in the face. Tell that to a bartender who spends 40 hours a week slinging drinks only to go out to another bar with his buddies right after leaving one to go get social.

I’m not trying to be harsh here on purpose or whatever, but this is the kind of shit that a lot of guys do in this community that rubs me the wrong way. They do shit wrong and then it’s the community’s fault. Or in your case you shouldn’t have (maybe shouldn’t be) coaching and it fucks up your life, your students are not getting results, and you place the blame on external shit, instead of taking a look at yourself. You are, in effect, being no better than your students who “want to unload the responsibility for changing themselves onto someone else.”

Personally I LOVE the fact that my job mixes work and play, and that I can go out and be social. That’s why I do it. But the thing is, I can be real with myself. I don’t have to prove myself to anyone. If they come in the door, I interview them before they give me 1 dime and if I think they aren’t ready I send them off telling them exactly what they need to do before I will coach them. I also make it clear before they give me any money that they will be expected to do the heavy lifting. When we go out I will be myself. I will even go get blown out right along side my students. They respect me for being straight with them. I have nothing to prove because I know my game is pretty strong both INNER and OUTER. Looks like you are missing the INNER but your OUTER (you say) is pretty solid.

Anyway, these problems we get from students – we LEARN from them. We USE these “problem” students as ways to learn to teach future students with similar “problems”. That’s the point. You learn to coach just like you learn to pick up women. You improve so your students can improve. But you have to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to do that.

13 responses to “Self Loathing Pickup Artists, Coaches and Mark Manson

  1. Wow! That’s all I can say to this.

    I’ve had my issues over the years with coaches also who go on rampage bashing the community. When shit hits the fan, they brand the community’s literature as faulty instead of taking the blame for their inability to coach properly.

    Mark Manson is 1 of those coaches who fell into that bracket as far as PUA coaches who turned around to bash PUA’s.

    I had to come down on Johnny Wolf’s ass over Facebook for similar posts he made about guys in pickup/ his students.

    I honestly believe that the community went wrong when coaches started to monetize this genre which took the fun out of it in a way. Sure you can charge $ for pickup and teaching but most coaches are so focused on the $ aspect that they don’t exhibit that same drive and passion to teach guys.

    • “Above all, you want to create something you are proud of…. That has always been my philosophy of business. I can honestly say that I have never gone into any business purely to make money. If that is the sole motive, then I believe you are better off doing nothing.” – Richard Branson

      I think you’re absolutely right. I do feel that since way back in the day when I started and the Style’s book hadn’t even been thought up yet (damn I’ve been at this a long time… 😉 ) the community only had a small handful of guys that were trying to make money, and a lot of them were NOT marketers.

      I will write, over time, a little about what motivated me to start coaching but money is a small part of it. (I would be a liar if I said money has nothing to do with it). Mostly there are a few reasons that pop in my head but one of the major ones out there was the influx of bad information and bad coaches.

      In this case, if the guy PITIED his students, didn’t like his life, didn’t like his job, then he should have fucking moved on instead of faking it. To me, it sounds like he never should have been coaching in the first place, because he, himself was fucked up.

      I guess that’s the problem with the whole Marketing thing, and people doing this purely for money.

      But you’re right. It’s like this new Self-Loathing PUA trend. Some of these guys just try way too hard to be “Above all that PUA shit” when they spent years of their life learning from it to become whoever they are.

      But here’s the thing. Maybe these guys all have something in common. Maybe they AREN’T really getting the results they would like others to think they are. Maybe that’s the real reason behind why they are so jaded towards the community. Sure, on paper they say they had/have massive success, but maybe this is their passive aggressive way to lash out for not having the success that they wanted to get.

      I don’t know, but now I need to add Mark Manson to my list of Red Flags.

      • Yea that’s what I meant, the community didn’t really have marketers back then although they were 1 and 2 guys who charged. They still weren’t marketers. Today, those marketers have infiltrated the genre.

          • As I read the e-mail, I’m really disgusted by Entropy PUA aka MM. I hate when these guys bash pickup yet their own model is 100% based on PUA concept and insights. It’s ridiculous!

          • Ya, I almost feel I need to post that as well but we’ll see. But ya. It’s just ridiculous. Don’t bash the PUA shit if you’re a PUA, just so you can sound more “highbrow” and Especially if it’s just to try to sell something.

          • I always wonder the angle or mindset at play when coaches do this double-edge backbiting shit. Like are they thinking that by going against what they themselves advocate would set them apart somehow from others? I don’t know the angle. Speer did that shit once when he split apart from Mystery, Matador and Lovedrop, I listened to him on a pickup podcast episode back in 2008 bashing the community and pickup concepts, saying that the teachings and materials are poisonous, toxic and bad…yet in 2011 when he hooked up with VK Vince Kelvin, Speer branded himself the king of pickup including the name of his site/blog to this day…yet he hated Pickup, the name and everything it stood for back in 2008. Pure hypocrisy. And at the end of the day, these guy pitch products at PUA’s and newbies in order to get sales.

  2. it’s not ok that mm bash the community, but his stuff works for me. to be honest, it is pua stuff and that kind of stuff which is polarizing.

    • Does it work for you? Or does it just feel good and make you feel like you’re doing the right thing?

      At the end of the day the only thing that counts are the results you are getting. If you feel good but aren’t out having success with women, getting laid and getting quality women in your life, then we call it mental masturbation.

      • I didn’t use only his stuff. His stuff is also important for me. At the beginning of his book he is anti-pua, but when it comes to dates he use the basics of puas. KINO, Dates, Communication and so on. Mixed with the sexuall framing from Captain Jack and others puas i get good(for me my results are awesome) results for myself compared to the time, i dindt know pu.
        My goal is not to fuck every manipulativ, jealous and that other kind of crap womens. this book shows me the meaning of unhealthy girls and how i can deal with them. before mm i was trying to get laid with nearly every beautyfull women. now i like to have some comfort with them. thats includes that they trust me, for that the concept of vulnerability is really good.
        at the beginning- middle => oldshool pua stuff (just my opener is very simple, sometimes i have a funny and sexual opener depends on the situation, but usually its allways the same)
        at the second part of the middle => mm stuff (vulnerability) (for comfort and trust)
        at the end => mission complete

  3. Mark Manson has never taken the pua is 100 % bullshit -route, like Sleazy and some others. Manson has said that pua gives you the wrong kind of confidence that is more based on a narcissistic view of oneself. I agree with this. I’ve seen so many guys who have this huge fragile ego who are able to pick up succesfully. Arrogance is attractive to many girls. But these guys depend on the admiration of girls and guys who think he’s awesome begause he gets the girls. I used to be extremely insecure despite being able to attract really hot girls. I was just really good at hiding it and had this belief I was this super cool rock star bad boy. The guys who saw through me were tooling me often. Also I took rejections pretty harshly and I was generally blaming myself for a lot of stuff that had nothing to do with me. What an alpha…

    Most pick up literature doesn’t help you solve your issues, the very relationship dynamics, childhood traumas and beliefs that cause insecurity in you. Instead they teach you how to act despite your insecurities and fake alphaness. This is where Manson comes in. Very rarely do pick up coaches touch the subject of developing self confidence by being yourself, even if it means admitting you are weak and far from a super alpha womanizer who you’d like to be.

Leave a Comment

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s