Pickup Artists are Creepy Wanna Be Rapists Who Hate Women – The Double Standard

Pickup Artists are widely considered people who use tactics and techniques to try and “manipulate” members of the opposite sex into bed.  Predatory, manipulative, rape culture, creepy…

Where else have we seen that before?

Popular Women’s Magazines perhaps?

Let’s completely overlook the ways women can look their sexiest, to attract men.  Forget all the fashion techniques, makeup, hair, pushup bras, bling etc.  Just ask a girl, they do all that for THEMSELVES..  Yeah, right…

But let’s look at some of these Mainstream Articles in these Popular women’s magazines.

Article Titles like:

Get Men to do your bidding without being a Nag

Get in his head and in his bed!

Christina Hendricks:  How she chased her man and got him!

How to disappear without a trace.

The Sex position that will Put a Ring on your Finger.

Football and poker will improve your relationship.  Find out how!

And a whole host of ways to manipulate men through sex.

It took me literally 3 minutes to pull of 3 random women’s magazine covers without even skimming for what the content of the covers would be.  Let me guess…  Women don’t read these magazines.  That’s how these magazines stay in business, and have stayed in business for so long.  That’s why advertisers spend a fortune advertising their products in these magazines. It’s because women don’t buy or read them…  😉

Am I complaining?  Am I saying there’s something wrong with all of this?  NOPE!  As a matter of fact, I am very far from the hypocritical crowd out there spouting out how men learning tactics and techniques or even just improving their lives inside and out is somehow creepy, misogynistic, women hating, rape culture.  If that were the case than women have been rapey, men hating, creepsters since before I was born.

No.  Men and women trying to become more attractive to the opposite sex is AWESOME!  It is NORMAL.  Why not?  But this double standard garbage has to stop.  Women and Men are playing the same game, and the fact is, the WOMEN have been making the rules for a long time.  In essence it is a woman’s game.  It is a beautiful game to play.  It’s just too bad some angry, jaded people, both men and women, are trying to project their own ignorance, and corrupted thinking on it.

Flirting is a dance.  It is very much so, in my opinion, an elegant, beautiful dance.  So if men and women want to learn some moves to become better dancers, Fantastic!!  But this double standard that what is great for women to do is evil for men to do just needs to be put to rest.


OHH!!  Looks like I made a booboo, to the excitement and delight of one particular mangina and his blog of estrogen filled man-hating feminist followers.

A couple of the covers above, are from a parody article.  I guess just taking the first 3 covers at random and posting them in 3 minutes has it’s setbacks.  Silly me.

However, since responding beyond my only comment I left on his blog,

“If you came out of your mom’s basement, and unplugged from your attempt to win the favor of women by self-loathing you could go to any supermarket and look at any cover of any of these magazines and see how ridiculously wrong you are.

Cheers! :)”

…which is still awaiting moderation, I don’t think that this warrants the attention of another blog post.

But what I will do is take another 5 minutes of my life to give another blogger more to obsess over me about by taking hours of his day to look into every little detail of what I am about to post.  Funny how a creepy, stalkerish guy is so quick to recognize (project) his traits in others while spending hours trying to dissect my article.  Projection much?

Oh, and click this for the mangina post.

On a similar note.  Check out this article about other websites similar to the Mangina site above:

I am the Patriarchy – Mangina Sites

One last word.  Of COURSE the mangina’s article completely misses the point of this one.

Again, I think it is FABULOUS that men and women are trying to become more attractive to one another.  Men and women are not separate like the mangina site would have you believe.

In life there are a couple different schools of thought, if you will.

There are people who are separate.  Apart.

I’m old, you’re young.

I’m straight, you’re gay.

I’m Atheist, you’re religious.

He’s black, I’m white.

She’s a woman, I’m a man.

And on and on and on.

Separate – Apart.  That’s what mangina and his poor collection of readers live their lives like every day.

Then there are other people who like to think we are all in this together.  In the Taoist philosophy we all compliment one another.  Yin and Yang.  Darkness brings light.  High allows there to be low.  Valley and Mountain compliment each other as do the Seasons.

Men and women make wonderful dance partners so to speak.  We are all on THE SAME TEAM.  The human race.  There is no jaded battle between men and women other than from those who have completely lost their way.

Flirting, sexuality, seduction.  It’s a dance.  A beautiful, wonderful dance that life has gifted us the opportunity to participate in.  There is no Me vs You.  There is not US and THEM.  We are all in this together.

From the “Other” Side – Could Pickup Arts Have Stopped Elliot Roger From His Rampage?

So the Internet buzz right now, related the the PUA community, is about that guy Elliot Roger.  A couple of places, mostly jaded women’s rights (or more like Men’s Hate) blogs are trying to connect the dots, saying Elliot Roger, who was a member of a website called puahate.com, is also a PUA by default, so to speak.

So, I thought it was interesting some of the takes that has fueled the ever more man hating rage some of these women and men apologists seem to have.  Basically this is from skimming the comments section over at another blog:

Pickup artists argue that “Game” is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.

The blog is run by a self-loathing male, I think, who probably feels like the “White Knight” where if he talks about how men suck that women will flock to him and laud him as a hero and perhaps he can get the attention from them he has always lacked in the real world. It seems to work.  Jaded femmes by the Dozens flock to his blog like a dive bar filled with angry feminists.  I made one comment after a long day, and it stirred up the hornets nest, however, the next day when I tried to comment again, using many of the comments of those replying to mine, to point out the hypocracy of their thinking – well, as I figured, that post never made it through the magical “your comment is awaiting moderation” flag that seemed to pop up for me, while the she-girl man haters club got to post away freely.

Basically the attitude of the majority over there seems to be a “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” stance from the she-haters.  In other words, men, at least the ones that these females don’t automatically find attractive upon first glance and have a shot with, have no business talking to women.  Women just don’t need to be bothered by these “Morlocks” if you will.  They want to go on their happy lives, and not have to deal with undesirables trying to flirt with them.  It works like this.  If you are the 1% of men in the world that are attractive to these women, you are ok, just as long as they can also have their desires for you reciprocated.

However for the rest of men, they fall into a few different Blanket Categories:

1.  The Creeper – Men whom these women do not approve of, or cannot have their way with if the women find them attractive, are considered creepy.  If one tries to hit on one of these women, and things don’t work out, these men are creepy, they are harassing the women,they are borderline molesting them.  How dare these less than sexy men have desires for these women and try to make them known!!  One also falls into this category if he is unskilled in the dating world.  If he is not, by default, great with women off the bat, then he has no business trying to talk to them since he is a creepy misogynist if he does.

2.  The Wanna Be Rapist – Men who go about trying to improve their dating lives by studying or trying ANYTHING that can loosely be related to Pickup Arts in any way shape or form are neatly pigeonholed into a couple of categories.  A.  They hate women.  B.  They want to Rape Women.  So, anyone who is not automatically approved of from the she-hateists that tries to step up the ladder is also evil, misogynistic, and are a threat to women.  No man should ever try to become better at dating!!  They should just be happy with being a Creeper and NEVER talk to women!

3.  The Possible Mass Murderer – Well as you can see, since men are automatically creepy if women don’t approve of them, and they are serial rapists and they hate women if they try to improve themselves, then there is a very real possibility as we just witnessed that these troglodytes of the male species (99%) are very likely to go off on a killing spree.  This makes them even more of a threat – because God forbid they can’t Rape women, because then they will just turn around and start killing people.

Moral of the story?  Well Saturday Night Live summed it up very nicely in this mock advertisement about sexual harassment they did a few years back:


Be Handsome

Be Attractive

Don’t Be Unattractive

This is what that WHOLE comments section in that blog post boils down to.  Hypocrisy at it’s finest.  Women who only want to have to be hit on by men who they find desirable.  All the flag waving, rah-rahing, men bashing is shallow as can be.  It’s all about them wanting to have their cake and eat it to.

Then there’s Spin bullshit like this by some media sites where they try to say that PUAHATE is actually a pickup artist site in disguise:

Women-hating ‘Pick-Up-Artist’ groups laud the ‘virgin killer’ for his vile and murderous comments online

But let’s get real for a moment.  Was Elliot Roger a pick up artist?  Do pickup artists support him?

Let’s put it like this.  He was a “member” of puahate.com.  Pickup artists generally know that those who end up on puahate are those who failed at pickup.  Most of them probably tried and failed, so embittered and angry, they ended up there.  That is what the majority of the site’s posters were made up of.  There were a few guys on there claiming to have success with women, but as one guy so eloquently put it in another discussion about this we are having, “they would post their own method that was rehashed from common sense or other pick up method.  For example: they said I just approach until I find a girl who is receptive and then tease her and have a conversation with her.  And by the way fuck mystery method!”

However, as a whole puahate is regarded by pickup artists as the angry, embittered failure club.  Even more so, Elliot Roger was actually shunned by that community.  He was so angry and embittered that the other angry and embittered guys couldn’t stomach him so they ousted him from their community as well.  So, Elliot was NOT a pickup artist, nor was he even accepted as a puahater.  He was just a kid that decided it was better to play victim instead of trying to do the hard work and try to improve himself.  As Athene would put it:

Am I being a dick about the kid?  Yeah, kinda.  He was good looking, had money, drove a BMW at 22, and instead of trying – fucking getting out there and taking responsibility for himself and TRYING to improve himself, through hard work, dedication, and failure over and over again until he succeeded, he took the pussies way out – he decided to play victim and then take it out on the innocents around him.

This game, pickup, can be hard.  It’s certainly not for everyone.  Not everyone can stomach going out and getting rejected over and over until your skillset improves, EVEN once your skillset improves guys will see days where they go out and not one approach sticks. Sure you may even get to the point where, like me, rejections from women mostly are composed of smiles, “you made my day’s but I’m dating someone.”, witty and fun conversations where the girl says she can’t because of A,B or C but still walks away with a big smile on her face, but even that can be a little frustrating sometimes – however that’s when he have to remind ourselves to not be attached to the outcome.  Flirting is for fun!  Pickup is not about the End Game, there is no End Game – there is simply Enjoying the Process.

However, to just not even TRY.  That is the worst sin of all in my book.  I have, up until this point in my life, had a pretty fucking hard time, not just with pickup, but with sleep problems leading to emotional problems, leading to this or that problem.  But it is my will to drive myself to succeed that makes life worth living.  It is my drive to try and fail and try and fail again, that ultimately leads me to having success.  I have had many, many beautiful women in my life – some on the outside and some on the inside.  So despite any amount of pain I have had I have also had plenty of amazing experiences, especially with women, peppered in there.  But I had to TRY!  I had to get off my ass and TRY.  Some days, when sleep is especially bad, I feel like giving up.  It has been a horrible feeling.  It is shit I would never wish on my worst enemy.

But I drive on.  The army used to say, “Suck it up and Drive on!”  That’s what, in my opinion, Elliot Roger needed to learn but didn’t.  He needed to learn to suck it up and drive on.  It’s funny too, because when I was his age and particularly fucked up in my head, I decided, “I’m going to join the army!”

Why?  Because I figured bootcamp and being busy 24/7 would be good for my mind.  I figured exercise, and doing all these drills and training that would keep my mind and body busy would be better than just stewing and letting my mind run away with me.  And it WORKED!

So I cannot abide by the concept of some douchebag committing mass murder just because he was too afraid, too lazy to actually fucking take responsibility for himself and TRY!  Could we have stopped him from his path of stupidness? No, because he was uninterested in saving himself and trying to improve his life.  To him it was easier to just be a victim and create REAL victims in his wake.

So fuck you Elliot Roger.  I promise I speak for a majority of the Pickup/Dating/Seduction community when I say, no – we do NOT approve of people like Elliot Roger in any way, shape or form.  We are not even nearly associated to people like him.  And as for you angry women trolling your men’s hate blogs and groups on the internet, wanting, NEEDING me and others like me to fail, well, honestly, you’re not even worth a “fuck you.”  You’re stuck living your life with YOU.


This was a post on the Super Secret Forum I talk about from time to time by a guy who’s handle there goes by the name of BOOM!  Boom! is a great guy, and he took a mini bootcamp with me for 2 days for daygame which so I know first hand he is a great guy.  This post of his really hit home for me.  So, I am posting it here in the Sidecar section.  Enjoi:

I saw this posted on my newsfeed the other day by one of my friends who commonly posts articles about social justice-related topics.

The Pick-Up Artist Community’s Predictable, Horrible Response to a Mass Murder

Article is written by a girl, which makes it even less likely to be an objective viewpoint on pickup.

A lot of these articles seem to be coming from the baseline of pickup being misogynistic. It’s an easy thing to believe if you don’t really know much about pickup and still just see the whole thing as negs and peacocking. This article didn’t pin the guy as primarily negatively influenced by pickup, but the community’s response to the event was criticized. Hah.

I remember one time, I was out with a friend after I started pickup. We were on the topic of one-night stands. He started talking about a girl we both know who is a little bit more carefree than most and “sleeps around”. He then categorized this girl, as well as any girl who would have sex with a guy the night she meets him, as a “slut”. This made me angry. I stopped him and said, “don’t you ever use that fucking word to describe any girl again. The word slut implies too much judgment, and women should be free to do what they want without being judged, as long as it’s not hurting anyone else. Is her having sex with someone random every weekend hurting you? No. So why the judgment?”

I feel like judgment of that kind has to come from some sort of jealousy. Wait, she’s having sex whenever she wants, which I can’t do, is there something wrong with me? No, the problem is with her, that SLUT! But, pickup teaches you to accept the freedom of choice that women have. If anything, that makes the community less misogynistic. Buuuut wait, dating multiple women is wrong! Why can’t we just acknowledge that dating is a skill set that can ultimately be practiced and improved? Do non-pickup people think that perfect dates just naturally happen? Wouldn’t the natural way to prime yourself for a potential wife be to get as good as you can at this shit before you meet her? How else do you get good but practice? I have friends who tell me that their style is different from mine, they prefer not to date multiple women, wait around for the right one, etc. and while I nod and accept their viewpoint, I look at the scarcity in their dating life and know for a fact that they would love to date around but are simply too scared to take action.

To connect to the topic at hand, this brings an interesting idea to mind: pickup is universally hated or misunderstood by pretty much everyone. I see liberal articles slamming pickup as being misogynistic. I see conservatives shaming pickup because it’s immoral and devalues sex. The community has no friends.

However, if you frame it differently…

People have pointed out that I’ve changed, that I’m funnier, more confident, happier, etc. than I used to be. Minor inconveniences don’t ruin my day like they seem to for a lot of people. I can go home after a night of brutal rejection with a big smile on my face and still feel great. The other day this girl referred to me and Ronnie as “3s” and I did not even feel a single pang of hurt, I actually found it rather funny.

Yesterday me and Jawsome approached these girls at about 6 AM in an after-hours diner with the apocalypse opener. Didn’t work, but we stayed in set for a while and had an interesting discussion. I asked the girl I was talking to that (a) if I was still living in Chicago, and (b) I approached her with a simple “hello” or something similar and asked her to go out for coffee or drinks, what she would say. She said that yes, she would go on a date with me. This was, however, a few minutes after she said I was probably a misogynist. I think on a surface level she thought that a guy who would approach a girl in a diner at 6 AM and ask her to go home with him was probably someone who hated women, but as we talked she relented on that stance. I.e. the image of a pickup artist is someone who sees women as objects, but once you meet them you (hopefully) realize that that’s not the case.

What the fuck was the point of my post? I don’t know, I just had a lot of thoughts that bubbled to the surface when I heard about this incident and felt the need to spit them out. Clearly a very tragic event and I do cringe at commercial organizations trying to capitalize on it (sign up for our bootcamp so you don’t end up like this guy!), but also reveals how sadly misunderstood the community is.

Self Loathing Pickup Artists, Coaches and Mark Manson

I have some great articles I wrote coming up on my blog, as well as some audios of me doing talks in Chicago, (possibly videos but I haven’t decided yet) but I had to kind of fit this in here. I really don’t want to make my blog a place where I “call out” bad coaches or whatever but I come across some of these guys and just shake my head, realizing that guy are paying them GOOD MONEY to learn BAD HABITS and BAD INFORMATION and in this case it appears from someone who doesn’t even enjoy what he does and doesn’t have the skills (self admittedly) to teach his own students.  In this case I’m talking about a guy calling himself Mark Manson who is the author of the blog markmanson.net which was formerly known as Postmasculine.com.

I don’t really know who this guy is apart from the fact that there were a couple guys on a private forum I belong to who said they read his blog and said it was great stuff.  However, both of these guys who read his stuff have a sort of attitude that can be summarized as, “Who needs this pickup shit?  You don’t need to study bullshit routines or material.  All that pickup stuff is bullshit!  Just be a man and grab your balls.”

The inherent problem with this is that these are also guys who are not having the success they want from this game, however they have created a mental block for themselves, unknowingly, that is not allowing them to use all the avenues available to bring their game to a kickass level.  Why?

Well, I won’t spell it out for you too much but my belief is that there have been an influx of guys coming onto the scene these days teaching dating / seduction / pick up arts who are trying to make themselves and others think, they are on some higher level of game and that all that old, “Pick up bullshit” is so beneath them.  The problem is they create a dichotomy in people wanting to learn this stuff and improve their lives that:
A:  I want to learn pickup and seduction.

B:  Wanting to learn pickup and seduction is creepy, for losers etc.

So they basically cut these poor guys off at the knees.

I think my comment to him will explain what I mean pretty well so, to avoid the risk of repeating myself, I’ll just get right to the comment I left on his “Moderated” blog comments section, which I tend to doubt will even see the light of day.  PS – As I said before, I tend to Red Flag anyone who moderates their blog.  If you’re not confident enough in your beliefs on your blog where you can post them and handle the feedback people give, you probably shouldn’t be posting those beliefs.

Anyway, here’s a link to his article:


The comments that really got under my skin were the following:

Quote from:  Mark Manson

“Here’s a dirty truth about being a PUA coach: many guys who take coaching don’t actually want to change. They want to be validated. They want to feel cool and be around someone who they think is cool. They want to unload the responsibility for changing themselves onto someone else.Rather than hiring a coach to help them progress, to them it’s more of a “rent-a-cool-friend” service.

…A lot of these guys don’t need a pick up instructor. They need a shrink and maybe some sort of anti-anxiety therapy. They need some confidence and a push to put themselves out there more and more. The technical aspect of picking up women really ISN’T that difficult. It really can be explained and taught within a few days. But it must be practiced for a long time, and to have that practice, a guy has to have healthy mindsets and an ability to overcome his fears.”

And my reply to him (we’ll see if he actually posts it):

Ummmm. I see stuff like this from “coaches” and it makes me sad that so many of them shouldn’t be coaching.

PART OF THE TERRITORY is that it’s my job as a dating coach to not only make my students who are in this boat aware of this fact, but to hammer that bullshit attitude out of them and rebuild them up sending them in a positive direction. That’s why they pay you, man. They are paying you to help them change for the better. Maybe they don’t even know these things are their problem, but for every single guy that has come to me wanting me to do all the heavy lifting and placing the responsibility of them magically changing upon my shoulders I Call them on it, and immediately kick that shit up into a higher standard and make them work.

If they have social anxiety, then they paid me, I help them overcome it. If they are fucked up a little in the head – that’s easy, I was once fucked up in the head too, and since I took responsibility and improved myself, I can use some of those same tools to help my students.

Here’s what’s funny. The same thing you are accusing your students of is the exact same thing you are doing. They are placing the responsibility for change on your shoulders, and then you are turning around and placing that responsibility on psychology articles, saying they need to seek a psychiatrist, or just playing it off as “they don’t want to change”.

In other words YOU “want to unload the responsibility for changing YOUR STUDENTS onto someone else.” Why are you charging them if you can’t handle them? Maybe instead of blaming them, you should step away from coaching and get your shit straight before you try coaching others.

Teaching a guy to get laid is the easy part. Teaching them to have a skillset, and have a kickass attitude and mindset is the real challenge. You said it yourself. You don’t even like to coach. You don’t or didn’t even like yourself and you have some misconstrued idea that because you let the life get the best of you, that means everyone else is in the same boat. You thrived off the validation and always felt the need to impress your students, were always worried what they thought about you. Speaking of boats – another one is the “I’m so much cooler than the PUA community” boat a lot of guys seem to be jumping on board. So many guys play this game of learning their skillset from the community and then they want to portray themselves as “I’m not one of those creepy pickup guys”. You’re part of the problem. You’re letting social programming run away with you. You think this is you being above the PUA thing but this is just your inner fear of society viewing you as “one of those pickup nerds”. That shit rubs off on other guys. Now you got guys out there wanting to improve but feeling this weird dynamic that they are somehow “creepy or weird” for wanting to learn it. Guys like you are perpetuating the same shit that we are ALL supposed to be fighting against. Anyway, back on topic…

Has it ever occurred to you that if you had your shit straight to begin with you wouldn’t need to seek the validation of your students, or wouldn’t worry about trying to approach every girl you see to prove something to them? You wouldn’t get so caught up in that downward spiral you talked about. As a matter of fact, if you truly enjoyed what you did, really were passionate about being social, going out, meeting people, meeting women – if this was NORMAL for you, no amount of getting paid or not getting paid would ruin that for you.

Tell that nonsense to a successful club promoter. He/she will laugh at you in the face. Tell that to a bartender who spends 40 hours a week slinging drinks only to go out to another bar with his buddies right after leaving one to go get social.

I’m not trying to be harsh here on purpose or whatever, but this is the kind of shit that a lot of guys do in this community that rubs me the wrong way. They do shit wrong and then it’s the community’s fault. Or in your case you shouldn’t have (maybe shouldn’t be) coaching and it fucks up your life, your students are not getting results, and you place the blame on external shit, instead of taking a look at yourself. You are, in effect, being no better than your students who “want to unload the responsibility for changing themselves onto someone else.”

Personally I LOVE the fact that my job mixes work and play, and that I can go out and be social. That’s why I do it. But the thing is, I can be real with myself. I don’t have to prove myself to anyone. If they come in the door, I interview them before they give me 1 dime and if I think they aren’t ready I send them off telling them exactly what they need to do before I will coach them. I also make it clear before they give me any money that they will be expected to do the heavy lifting. When we go out I will be myself. I will even go get blown out right along side my students. They respect me for being straight with them. I have nothing to prove because I know my game is pretty strong both INNER and OUTER. Looks like you are missing the INNER but your OUTER (you say) is pretty solid.

Anyway, these problems we get from students – we LEARN from them. We USE these “problem” students as ways to learn to teach future students with similar “problems”. That’s the point. You learn to coach just like you learn to pick up women. You improve so your students can improve. But you have to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to do that.