From the “Other” Side – Could Pickup Arts Have Stopped Elliot Roger From His Rampage?

So the Internet buzz right now, related the the PUA community, is about that guy Elliot Roger.  A couple of places, mostly jaded women’s rights (or more like Men’s Hate) blogs are trying to connect the dots, saying Elliot Roger, who was a member of a website called, is also a PUA by default, so to speak.

So, I thought it was interesting some of the takes that has fueled the ever more man hating rage some of these women and men apologists seem to have.  Basically this is from skimming the comments section over at another blog:

Pickup artists argue that “Game” is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong.

The blog is run by a self-loathing male, I think, who probably feels like the “White Knight” where if he talks about how men suck that women will flock to him and laud him as a hero and perhaps he can get the attention from them he has always lacked in the real world. It seems to work.  Jaded femmes by the Dozens flock to his blog like a dive bar filled with angry feminists.  I made one comment after a long day, and it stirred up the hornets nest, however, the next day when I tried to comment again, using many of the comments of those replying to mine, to point out the hypocracy of their thinking – well, as I figured, that post never made it through the magical “your comment is awaiting moderation” flag that seemed to pop up for me, while the she-girl man haters club got to post away freely.

Basically the attitude of the majority over there seems to be a “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” stance from the she-haters.  In other words, men, at least the ones that these females don’t automatically find attractive upon first glance and have a shot with, have no business talking to women.  Women just don’t need to be bothered by these “Morlocks” if you will.  They want to go on their happy lives, and not have to deal with undesirables trying to flirt with them.  It works like this.  If you are the 1% of men in the world that are attractive to these women, you are ok, just as long as they can also have their desires for you reciprocated.

However for the rest of men, they fall into a few different Blanket Categories:

1.  The Creeper – Men whom these women do not approve of, or cannot have their way with if the women find them attractive, are considered creepy.  If one tries to hit on one of these women, and things don’t work out, these men are creepy, they are harassing the women,they are borderline molesting them.  How dare these less than sexy men have desires for these women and try to make them known!!  One also falls into this category if he is unskilled in the dating world.  If he is not, by default, great with women off the bat, then he has no business trying to talk to them since he is a creepy misogynist if he does.

2.  The Wanna Be Rapist – Men who go about trying to improve their dating lives by studying or trying ANYTHING that can loosely be related to Pickup Arts in any way shape or form are neatly pigeonholed into a couple of categories.  A.  They hate women.  B.  They want to Rape Women.  So, anyone who is not automatically approved of from the she-hateists that tries to step up the ladder is also evil, misogynistic, and are a threat to women.  No man should ever try to become better at dating!!  They should just be happy with being a Creeper and NEVER talk to women!

3.  The Possible Mass Murderer – Well as you can see, since men are automatically creepy if women don’t approve of them, and they are serial rapists and they hate women if they try to improve themselves, then there is a very real possibility as we just witnessed that these troglodytes of the male species (99%) are very likely to go off on a killing spree.  This makes them even more of a threat – because God forbid they can’t Rape women, because then they will just turn around and start killing people.

Moral of the story?  Well Saturday Night Live summed it up very nicely in this mock advertisement about sexual harassment they did a few years back:

Be Handsome

Be Attractive

Don’t Be Unattractive

This is what that WHOLE comments section in that blog post boils down to.  Hypocrisy at it’s finest.  Women who only want to have to be hit on by men who they find desirable.  All the flag waving, rah-rahing, men bashing is shallow as can be.  It’s all about them wanting to have their cake and eat it to.

Then there’s Spin bullshit like this by some media sites where they try to say that PUAHATE is actually a pickup artist site in disguise:

Women-hating ‘Pick-Up-Artist’ groups laud the ‘virgin killer’ for his vile and murderous comments online

But let’s get real for a moment.  Was Elliot Roger a pick up artist?  Do pickup artists support him?

Let’s put it like this.  He was a “member” of  Pickup artists generally know that those who end up on puahate are those who failed at pickup.  Most of them probably tried and failed, so embittered and angry, they ended up there.  That is what the majority of the site’s posters were made up of.  There were a few guys on there claiming to have success with women, but as one guy so eloquently put it in another discussion about this we are having, “they would post their own method that was rehashed from common sense or other pick up method.  For example: they said I just approach until I find a girl who is receptive and then tease her and have a conversation with her.  And by the way fuck mystery method!”

However, as a whole puahate is regarded by pickup artists as the angry, embittered failure club.  Even more so, Elliot Roger was actually shunned by that community.  He was so angry and embittered that the other angry and embittered guys couldn’t stomach him so they ousted him from their community as well.  So, Elliot was NOT a pickup artist, nor was he even accepted as a puahater.  He was just a kid that decided it was better to play victim instead of trying to do the hard work and try to improve himself.  As Athene would put it:

Am I being a dick about the kid?  Yeah, kinda.  He was good looking, had money, drove a BMW at 22, and instead of trying – fucking getting out there and taking responsibility for himself and TRYING to improve himself, through hard work, dedication, and failure over and over again until he succeeded, he took the pussies way out – he decided to play victim and then take it out on the innocents around him.

This game, pickup, can be hard.  It’s certainly not for everyone.  Not everyone can stomach going out and getting rejected over and over until your skillset improves, EVEN once your skillset improves guys will see days where they go out and not one approach sticks. Sure you may even get to the point where, like me, rejections from women mostly are composed of smiles, “you made my day’s but I’m dating someone.”, witty and fun conversations where the girl says she can’t because of A,B or C but still walks away with a big smile on her face, but even that can be a little frustrating sometimes – however that’s when he have to remind ourselves to not be attached to the outcome.  Flirting is for fun!  Pickup is not about the End Game, there is no End Game – there is simply Enjoying the Process.

However, to just not even TRY.  That is the worst sin of all in my book.  I have, up until this point in my life, had a pretty fucking hard time, not just with pickup, but with sleep problems leading to emotional problems, leading to this or that problem.  But it is my will to drive myself to succeed that makes life worth living.  It is my drive to try and fail and try and fail again, that ultimately leads me to having success.  I have had many, many beautiful women in my life – some on the outside and some on the inside.  So despite any amount of pain I have had I have also had plenty of amazing experiences, especially with women, peppered in there.  But I had to TRY!  I had to get off my ass and TRY.  Some days, when sleep is especially bad, I feel like giving up.  It has been a horrible feeling.  It is shit I would never wish on my worst enemy.

But I drive on.  The army used to say, “Suck it up and Drive on!”  That’s what, in my opinion, Elliot Roger needed to learn but didn’t.  He needed to learn to suck it up and drive on.  It’s funny too, because when I was his age and particularly fucked up in my head, I decided, “I’m going to join the army!”

Why?  Because I figured bootcamp and being busy 24/7 would be good for my mind.  I figured exercise, and doing all these drills and training that would keep my mind and body busy would be better than just stewing and letting my mind run away with me.  And it WORKED!

So I cannot abide by the concept of some douchebag committing mass murder just because he was too afraid, too lazy to actually fucking take responsibility for himself and TRY!  Could we have stopped him from his path of stupidness? No, because he was uninterested in saving himself and trying to improve his life.  To him it was easier to just be a victim and create REAL victims in his wake.

So fuck you Elliot Roger.  I promise I speak for a majority of the Pickup/Dating/Seduction community when I say, no – we do NOT approve of people like Elliot Roger in any way, shape or form.  We are not even nearly associated to people like him.  And as for you angry women trolling your men’s hate blogs and groups on the internet, wanting, NEEDING me and others like me to fail, well, honestly, you’re not even worth a “fuck you.”  You’re stuck living your life with YOU.


This was a post on the Super Secret Forum I talk about from time to time by a guy who’s handle there goes by the name of BOOM!  Boom! is a great guy, and he took a mini bootcamp with me for 2 days for daygame which so I know first hand he is a great guy.  This post of his really hit home for me.  So, I am posting it here in the Sidecar section.  Enjoi:

I saw this posted on my newsfeed the other day by one of my friends who commonly posts articles about social justice-related topics.

The Pick-Up Artist Community’s Predictable, Horrible Response to a Mass Murder

Article is written by a girl, which makes it even less likely to be an objective viewpoint on pickup.

A lot of these articles seem to be coming from the baseline of pickup being misogynistic. It’s an easy thing to believe if you don’t really know much about pickup and still just see the whole thing as negs and peacocking. This article didn’t pin the guy as primarily negatively influenced by pickup, but the community’s response to the event was criticized. Hah.

I remember one time, I was out with a friend after I started pickup. We were on the topic of one-night stands. He started talking about a girl we both know who is a little bit more carefree than most and “sleeps around”. He then categorized this girl, as well as any girl who would have sex with a guy the night she meets him, as a “slut”. This made me angry. I stopped him and said, “don’t you ever use that fucking word to describe any girl again. The word slut implies too much judgment, and women should be free to do what they want without being judged, as long as it’s not hurting anyone else. Is her having sex with someone random every weekend hurting you? No. So why the judgment?”

I feel like judgment of that kind has to come from some sort of jealousy. Wait, she’s having sex whenever she wants, which I can’t do, is there something wrong with me? No, the problem is with her, that SLUT! But, pickup teaches you to accept the freedom of choice that women have. If anything, that makes the community less misogynistic. Buuuut wait, dating multiple women is wrong! Why can’t we just acknowledge that dating is a skill set that can ultimately be practiced and improved? Do non-pickup people think that perfect dates just naturally happen? Wouldn’t the natural way to prime yourself for a potential wife be to get as good as you can at this shit before you meet her? How else do you get good but practice? I have friends who tell me that their style is different from mine, they prefer not to date multiple women, wait around for the right one, etc. and while I nod and accept their viewpoint, I look at the scarcity in their dating life and know for a fact that they would love to date around but are simply too scared to take action.

To connect to the topic at hand, this brings an interesting idea to mind: pickup is universally hated or misunderstood by pretty much everyone. I see liberal articles slamming pickup as being misogynistic. I see conservatives shaming pickup because it’s immoral and devalues sex. The community has no friends.

However, if you frame it differently…

People have pointed out that I’ve changed, that I’m funnier, more confident, happier, etc. than I used to be. Minor inconveniences don’t ruin my day like they seem to for a lot of people. I can go home after a night of brutal rejection with a big smile on my face and still feel great. The other day this girl referred to me and Ronnie as “3s” and I did not even feel a single pang of hurt, I actually found it rather funny.

Yesterday me and Jawsome approached these girls at about 6 AM in an after-hours diner with the apocalypse opener. Didn’t work, but we stayed in set for a while and had an interesting discussion. I asked the girl I was talking to that (a) if I was still living in Chicago, and (b) I approached her with a simple “hello” or something similar and asked her to go out for coffee or drinks, what she would say. She said that yes, she would go on a date with me. This was, however, a few minutes after she said I was probably a misogynist. I think on a surface level she thought that a guy who would approach a girl in a diner at 6 AM and ask her to go home with him was probably someone who hated women, but as we talked she relented on that stance. I.e. the image of a pickup artist is someone who sees women as objects, but once you meet them you (hopefully) realize that that’s not the case.

What the fuck was the point of my post? I don’t know, I just had a lot of thoughts that bubbled to the surface when I heard about this incident and felt the need to spit them out. Clearly a very tragic event and I do cringe at commercial organizations trying to capitalize on it (sign up for our bootcamp so you don’t end up like this guy!), but also reveals how sadly misunderstood the community is.

Down in the dumps… My bitchy ranty post?

I can’t even flirt today…  This is where I do some stream of consciousness writing to ask myself, “Me?  What’s going on?”  That’s the question.  Now I will just write and not even really pay attention to what I write and get it out. For the record there are 2 cute girls to my left in this coffeeshop but I’m talking to them and, they even talked to me and engaged me a couple times, and I can’t get out of dry conversation.  I have no money and this job that hired me, just seems to be taking forever to start up.  I have taken to sending out resumes again just today to see if any other places need someone.  Not that I’m going to quit the other place, I plan on staying but they aren’t open so…  Well now would be a good time to have some fucking money in my pocket.

Graaaah.  So talk about dilemmas.  Here we go; I l already know the answer but I wanna see it written down and solidified.  If 2 cute girls are showing curiosity and interest in me, and I’m stuck in my head with this feeling of…  Droll, dumb, dry and non challenging or fun conversation…  Ronnie, What’s going on?


Dude, money?  Talk about frustrating.  So there’s a difference between being broke and being completely fucking broke.  When I am broke but have enough money to spend on little things, dating is actually pretty cool.  I can do well.  But right now I can’t even afford to go out by myself, let alone meet some girl and take her out.  Short of meeting some girl and pulling her to my place immediately, I really ….

Here’s the thing.  It’s one thing when I feel like I have some exciting shit going on in my life and I am actually living it.  But I am in this broke fucking state right now.  I get girls who I text with and the texts are even funny and entertaining and I am sure I could have these girls out with me, but then I don’t ask them out.  Why?  Anyway, I need to figure out how to get money in my pocket.

I get it.  Sticking to my guns is important, and I don’t fucking plan on selling out.  I need to follow my dreams of opening my own bar and I am getting to the age where if I don’t follow through now, I never will follow through.  So the time is now.  Establish.  Get involved.  But I’m 38 and I never thought, when I was young, that I would be this broke fucker struggling with painfully difficult sleep issues at this age.

No one tells you when you’re young, “So guess what?  You’re gonna deal with a fucked up sleep disease for years when you’re older where it will debilitate the fuck out of your life.  No.  Really.  You’re going to have days where you know people are out enjoying life and you’re going to be too much of a zombie to even get out of bed, or do anything besides play videogames or watch movies that you’re too tired to even pay attention to.  So you’ll just kind of veg out all day, eat and try to sleep in some painfully scary situation where it seems like the fact that you are SO fucking tired makes it, actually, more difficult to get to sleep.

Then you’re going to wake up, and have to sit there and wonder to yourself if you can push through the next day or if in about 30 minutes you’re going to realize that you didn’t get enough sleep and your eyes, your head, your mind and pretty much the rest of you are gonna feel like shit.  Man, and then there’s the battle of getting back to sleep, or sometimes, not where you lay there for an hour or two and slowly fall asleep, battling with trying…

Man, fuck this.  I am not going to be old this fucking fast.  I am not going to have some major issue like this at this point in my life.  I will conquer this.  But how?  I want to live my life.  I need to get a fucking job and I need to make sure it’s doing what  I love.

Why such an emphasis in doing what I love?  Because I have had enough pain in my life.  I ….

So Jesus Christ, Surprise, Surprise, Surprise…

This is how life works.

Check this out…

As I’m feeling like shit and bitching and whining to you what do you think happened?

Take a wild guess.  Don’t fucking cheat!

So my phone rang just a minute ago..  I had just put up a couple ads on craigslist trying to sell a couple things I have.  I didn’t recognize the number so I picked it up.

“Hi, Ronnie…?” The female voice on the other end said.

“Ya, this is,” I replied.

“This is ——- from ——— Bar.  Do you wanna work Sunday?  We’re gonna be open.”

Of fucking COURSE!  I didn’t say that, of fucking course, but the jist of it is..  It’s GO TIME.  That’s right.  My new bar is gonna be open this Sunday and they want me to work… Nice!

So here we go.  It’s been a while but I’m ready to do this.  Let’s make it happen!

Interesting how things change at the drop of a hat.  Sometimes I just need to make sure I follow my own advice and remind myself of the Taoist Farmer Story.

Anyway, ladies and gents.  It’s Go Time!


Wanna celebrate with me?  Well how does a broke ass Libra celebrate a victory such as this?  Besides sex.  I’ll get to that soon enough.  Let me get the money thing straightened out and then we can get back to seduction.  Cool?  😉

By watching Kung Fu, of course.

Here’s one of my favorites of all times.  It’s a little love story, no really.  It’s got action, comedy, romance, bromance, evil wizards, monsters, alcoholism and all sorts of shit all wrapped up into one.

I DARE YOU to watch it for 10 minutes and see if you don’t get sucked in.  Seriously.